I don't know. I guess the Spangel in me wants to see it as jealousy for Drusilla over William, and it really is implied in the show, and you can see it that way. But you can also see it as jealousy over Drusilla.

But yeah, there was definately a sexual vibe when they first meet, Angelus was looking at him with that gleam in his eye. The deviant line, especially for that time period, definately brings the sexual vibe into their relationship.

But then again, I always thought, why would it be jealousy over Drusilla? He didn't really care what she did, he encouraged her to find a companion, so why would he be jealous that she did, you know?

I always saw it as Angelus' jealousy over William paying more attention to Dru than him, whether he wanted William as a male lover, or just as a protege and companion. Right away you can see Angelus manipulating the two so that William would look at him as a sire, you know? He's the one that taught him, trained him, just like Spike says, Angel is the one that made him who he was.

that's what i meant sorry i wasn't very coherent
he has no reason to want Drusilla or shows signs of wanting her (till season 2 which i think is just to wind up spike) but he is jealous of her because she gets to share her destruction with another man (spike)
and i always thought the him teaching him training him almost symbolized him grooming him but that's just me getting in to kinkier stuff lol

also William appears quite feminine at first, writing poetry, a lot smaller and daintier than angelus, and a lot more meek
maybe that's the answer to the bitch question lol

Yeah, it doesn't even seem like it's about her in season two, she just seems like the monkey in the middle of the rivalry between Spike and Angelus, you know? Angelus always looks over at Spike when he's with Dru with a gleam like, 'What you going to do' or something like that.

And hey, I think Angelus was grooming him to. In a way, I see Drusilla and Spike as his projects, each molded by him. Drusilla was molded into his broken doll, his daddy's girl, and he molded Spike into the companion and killer he wanted him to be. I thought it was interesting in the episode where the sailor comes in that Angel was so sure that Spike would do what he told him to you know?

And yeah, especially with the dark blonde curls falling all over his face like that, and the poetry, he does seem meek and feminine. And yeah, that might be the answer to the bitch question. We should tell nosemuffin we've figured it out, lol.

i totally agree with them being projects and with that dru's just in the middle, and the 'what you going to go look' like when angelus has hold of her and she leans forward with her arms out and it's like he wants William to fight with him

ooo i wondering if spike getting more independent and dominant was what caused the friction lol

Maybe. Maybe Angelus took on more than he could chew. His intention was to mold Spike into someone he could control, but instead Spike ended up being a wild card that didn't care about 'daddy's approval' like Drusilla did, and instead did everything he could to rebel.

And yeah, that scene in Destiny, it's like Drusilla wasn't even there and just the catalyst for what Angelus was really focusing on, William.

There was friction there even before Buffy happened, but there was also still affection. Angel doesn't find it at all strange when Spike greets him with a hug in School Hard, like he expects it, you know, since he was trying to fool Spike thinking Spike didn't know about the soul, and Spike was playing him right back. So that shows that despite the friction they were still fairly affectionate with one another.

they are really, in season 2 they're very touchy feely with angelus always putting his on his should or leaning down to talk to him and putting it on his leg, and spike uses angels chest a few times to pull himself forward and such

here's a interesting but dark question that just popped in to my mind, we have said before that angelus probably raped dru, could he have done that to william at some point?

And he's always bending down near his ear in season two, like he's trying to intimadate Spike into something, and it's so close it looks like he's about to lick his ear or something.

And I've read a few fics where Angelus' has raped William, I've read that in Spuffy fics before actually. But it could have happened I think, when Spike was still William, because as Spike I don't think Angelus would have gotten a good enough hold on him to do that, you know.

ha ha ha i can just picture angelus randomly licking his ear!

what in spuffy fics, that angelus rapes spike or that spike succeded in seeing red (hmmm another intersting forum topic sprung to mind
link)

if angelus has raped william that might be where his anger stems from, why he enjoyed beating angelus up so much at the end of becoming

i seem to always end up talking about anger here but i think that because it's the root of their relationship to quote the buffster pain and suffering go hand in hand with love

Yeah, it does. And like Spike says, 'You always hurt the ones you love'. And yeah, it's more usually mentioned in background past stuff for the Spuffy relationship that Angelus raped Spike. There are actually quite a number of Spuffy fans that are Spangel fans as well, which I found interesting. To quote Moscow Watcher in one of her essays, 'It's cause Spike and Buffy are the slashiest of het couples.' Lol.

And yeah, wouldn't that have been great if Angelus just started licking Spike's ear. Can you just picture Spike's face, or...Buffy's if she saw it.

And I put that vid up, so I'll see what happens. For all I know, it might just go ignored, lol.

hmmm interesting indeed, i supose you apply the tranference theory then? like if you have been abused as a child you are more likely to abuse your own kids, so if spike has been raped as william...
hmmm vey interesting. God i love how many level this show has, and much stuff you can theorize yourself!

Buffy's face would be a treat! and i think that vids brill

anyways i do have loads more to say on the matter but i will have to come back to morrow as i need sleep!

Well, there are two theorys to that. If your abused as a child there's the theory that you grow up to be an abuser yourself, or that you grow up to catch them, you know. With vamps I think it would be different, and yet the same. William when he first comes out of his grave is still a little bit of the innocent, poetry loving young man he was as a human, and you can see the manipulations by his vampire family that turns him into Spike, as well as his anger and want for revenge of the society that scorned him. The society ironically gave him both of the names he choose to live up to, William the Bloody, which became something different than it was intended, and Spike, which was probably taken from the idea of one of the guests at the party saying 'I'd rather have a railroad spike through my head then listen to that'. I think he got his wish.

Spike is very submissive in any relationship he's in actually, if he loves or has any regard for that person, unlike Harmony, but I don't know if I consider that one a relationship. But Spike has refered to himself as 'Love's Bitch' and 'Willing Slave' and there was a lot of trauma with his first experience with Cecily, being told he was beneath her, and in a way, I think he unconsciously sees himself as beneath anyone he's in love with. The way he loves and the way he sees love are actually most often associated with girls, which is why Spike has a very interesting, contradictory personality, that isn't really feminine or masculine as it is more androgynus. Well, to me at least.

He tries to live up to Angelus, but is, in both their minds, 'beneath him' just like he's Drusilla's puppy dog devoted lover, and Buffy's willing slave. Underneath his bravado Spike is still very insecure, at least, that's the impression I got. Half of his bravado seems like a mask similar to Faith's.

And yes, maybe that's why this show has so many devoted obsessed fans, because it has so many layers to theorize.

By the way, night debs.

Wow, you two are really insightfull. I am completely on board with everything.

Before I forget, there is a fic called Foward to Times Past that does, I believe, work the Spike/Angelus relationship very well but in a very dark sort of vibe (it's a Spuffy story but the William to Spike is brilliant). I have read many fics that have Angelus/Spike rape and usually that serves as the catalyst for Spike and Dru venturing off from the group at some point and then meeting up again later on. I think that the rape is likely and here is my reasoning.

Once William was sired and began his transition into Spike he became, as the two brilliant ladies above me have said, an object that Angelus wished to mold. Dru was his submissive little plaything, Darla was his strong (but mindful) partner, and William was meant to be his companion. William was supposed to follow him in the hunt, consult him at all times but still be strong and a predator. He was meant to be "Angelus Lite", a sort of version of himself that served him and, after a while, share his bed. As a demon and a vampire who loved the kill, Angelus was into whatever was dark and he wanted to be deviant. He revels in it. When Spike began to grow though, to become his own vampire to contrast what he was thought of as a human, he toughens up. Add to that the fact that Spike loves Dru utterly and you have a Spike that isn't interested in staying out for a hunt but in returning to his lady love.

Dru was a toy of Angelus' that had passed its time. Sure, he would dust it off and play with it now and again but he wanted to try something different and when Spike showed no desire to follow that path and instead fell in love with Angelus' plaything, Angelus pushed Spike. By taking up with Dru again it wasn't a show of love or desire towards Dru but a want to be dominate over Spike and show that he could have what he wanted. Combine that showing with the subtle movements and double meanings and you have Angelus' pushing for something that he wants to try if only to assert his dominace.

The vampire family is like a pack of animals in a sense and when another male comes in the current Alpha has to assert his place. This is Angelus' trying to kill two birds with one stone.

Love your post.

I love this part the best, "Once William was sired and began his transition into Spike he became, as the two brilliant ladies above me have said, an object that Angelus wished to mold. Dru was his submissive little plaything, Darla was his strong (but mindful) partner, and William was meant to be his companion. William was supposed to follow him in the hunt, consult him at all times but still be strong and a predator. He was meant to be "Angelus Lite", a sort of version of himself that served him and, after a while, share his bed. As a demon and a vampire who loved the kill, Angelus was into whatever was dark and he wanted to be deviant. He revels in it. When Spike began to grow though, to become his own vampire to contrast what he was thought of as a human, he toughens up. Add to that the fact that Spike loves Dru utterly and you have a Spike that isn't interested in staying out for a hunt but in returning to his lady love."

I agree completely with it.

I also see vampires as pack animals with their familes. I think The Master and Angelus couldn't abide one another because they were both alpha males, as well as why Angelus' project with Penn failed. William being as soft appearing as he originally was seemed like the perfect beta male for Angelus to mold, the kind of companion he would want with a little of his own polishing, he just didn't count on William having a mind of his own. In Fool For Love, he had every right to kill Spike in that mine shaft, and I believe if that had been Penn, he would have, but he can't quite manage to do it, which I think shows to me that despite his project failing, he's not quite ready to give it up yet.

i completley agree with the mine shaft bit, infact i think it if it had been dru he might of killed her for that, or at least beat her to teacher her a lesson but for some reason he couldn't do it to spike

i think the animalistic dominace thing you can still see in season 2 between them and even in season 5 with the fang gang just lok at how insecure he is

Mine shaft theory is on point to me as well. If it was Penn, I'm fairly certain that he would have been dust swifty. I think Penn was just a flight of fancy. A short little jaunt that was more of a "what the hell" moment than something he wanted for the long run.

Darla just wouldn't put up or do such nonsense - she's too refined and enjoys society too much to risk exposure.

Dru, I believe, could have done something that would lead to the mine shaft scene but instead of it being a risky fight just for the hell of it, for the thrill and rush - it would have been something smaller that grew into something huge with Spike perhaps coming to her "rescue". I don't believe Angelus would have killed Dru. Nor do I believe Angelus could ever kill Dru unless his hand was forced because there is a twisted sense of responsibility and love that exists between the two. Dru wouldn't have escaped without a lesson, a "game" or something else that I think would have been bordering on torture but no staking.

The reason I believe that Angelus does not stake Spike is that there is a very precarious balance between the two at that time. Angelus is still the alpha male and still in charge of their family. That said, he knows that while he can still take Spike out (at that time), a battle between the two would't result in Spike coming to heel but instead with Spike taking Dru and leaving the family. Angelus is too attached to his "family" and he enjoys feeling the power and admiration that he is given. Spike also still holds promise of growing and as long as Dru is somewhat in his grasp Angelus can still use her to play off of Spike.

As far as alpha males in the Vampire world I think that a large part of it has to do with mates and relationships (even though mating is never mentioned in the show that I can recall, it's strictly a fan fic thing). Male vamps tend to sire female vamps (the ones they wish to be attached to). The Master sired Darla who in turned sired Angelus. Those two men don't get along. That is followed by Angelus siring Dru. While there isn't anamosity between the two girls, Dru and Darla have a strange sort of relationship because of Dru's mental state. If Dru had been more "there" I'm fairly certain the relationship would be based more in hatred than the begrudged acceptance it currently has. Skipping over Penn for the moment, when Dru sires Spike and begins to mold him into her "Dark Knight" (ok, James should play Batman now!) Angelus tries to put him in his place. Every childe and Sire seems to be based in a want, in a need for the other on some level and this need threatens the hold the Sire has his/her childe and this leads to resentment.

Going back to Penn, I may not have a good memory on this right now (I need to rewatch) but Penn was sired while Angelus was away from the family so he was sired more in a want for companionship and perhaps Angelus thought he would be eaisly bent to Angelus' will (that has a naughty double meaning ;) if you see it).

I had more to write planned in my head but I've forgotten so I'll come back when the thought circles round again

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